In every Yin there is some Yang
RE: RE: RE: A Courageous Jew Speaks Out - KUDOS
----------------- Bulletin Message -----------------
From: ♥ Angel ♥ ™
Date: Apr 27, 2007 7:12 AM
Much love & Respect to:
Houdini
Fred
The Zionist philosophizes that the Palestinian is not a human
(Israel was a land without a people). The Anti-Zionist argues that
the Palestinian is a human being. So what is the moderate viewpoint?
The Palestinian is a quasi-human? That seems to be the American
Progressive Jewish position. Amazing isn't it?
Polite Discussion on Zionism: Is it Possible?
Karin Friedemann - ummyakoub @ yahoo.com
April 25, 2007
World View News Service
I found http://www.realisticdove.org/ very interesting because it is
the first time I have come across a progressive Jew so honest about
his racism. Usually when confronted, these confused souls just get
indignant and refuse to speak to you for a few months. I always
wondered how a person could think that Israel has a "right"
to "security" and shrug off this amazing assumption with the
accusation that anyone who has questions about your definitions is
accusing you of being an evil murderer. Why would any sane person
think that he has the right to live unharrassed on someone else's
stolen property? Even the cute kids waving Israeli flags are
participating in a criminally insane political ideology.
Progressive Jews want to make the bottom line "Jews are nice
people." But that is not the bottom line. As Hillel mentioned, the
bottom line is that you don't do to others what you don't want
others to do to you. What would we expect if our neighbor, with or
without warning, bulldozed our house?
First, we would call the police. If the man with the bulldozer
failed to stop bulldozing the house, the police officer would have
the duty to disable the vehicle and he might even shoot him. I'm
talking about American law. The bulldozer man would be stopped. He
would be considered a criminal. He would be put on trial. He would
go to prison. If he had killed people in the process of bulldozing
the house, he might even be executed. The owner of the house that
was bulldozed would be entitled to damages plus extra for pain and
suffering. The law requires that his property be restored to the
original state that it was in. That includes replanting the trees
and fixing the pavement around the house.
The emotional defensiveness of Jews is actually quite amusing, where
they want to argue that the bulldozer man was not evil, he was not a
murderer. The family that moved into the stolen property are just
innocent idealists. They may be misguided, or mistaken, but for some
reason Jews want to argue that they are not evil. What they are
really saying is that they don't want Jews to be held legally
accountable for their actions. They want to enjoy the privilege of
being "protected" from the laws that apply to other people.
A law does not cover the "evilness" of a criminal. It covers actions
and consequences.
If international law were followed, the Israeli "government' would
never have kicked out any Palestinians. The entire existence of
Israel is based on the condition made by the UN that Palestinians
would remain in their homes and receive equal citizenship in the new
nation state. That condition was not followed. Therefore, there is
no legal basis for any assumption that Israel has a right to exist,
according to the UN. In fact, Israel does not really exist. It is a
figment of imagination, the defensive mechanism of the neurotic
Jewish collective consciousness. I agree that we need to stop
arguing about isms but the next step is to follow the laws that
already exist to solve the problems. Don't wait for the world
community to force Israel to do it. Why don't we, as Jews, just do
it? Why are progressive Jews wasting their time feeling emotionally
threatened by a one state solution? The real problem is that we are
feeling emotionally threatened by any solution. Because a solution
means that a lot of Jews need to be prosecuted.
The refugees need to be given back their property with extra for
damages. Even if they fled their homes because Arab leaders told
them to get out of the fighting zone in 1948, they have the legal
right to return to their homes as soon as the fighting stops. Small
wonder why Israel continues to attack people day after day.
The refugees need to be given full civil rights. Full water rights,
full road rights, and the full right to criminally prosecute. Every
Jewish family in America that has any property in the Holy Land
needs to be prosecuted as part of an organized criminal network.
Especially if both the Palestinian and the Jewish persons are
American citizens. For example one friend of mine, after her family
was forced off their land by gunpoint, New York Jews bought the
land, bulldozed everything, and planted orange trees. She knows
where they live. She knows their names. Anyone who buys or sells
stolen property is a criminal. They need to be prosecuted. Any Jew
who owns stolen property in the Holy Land should have his property
seized including their US assets and Progressive Jews should insist
on it instead of doing these mental "I'm not evil" gymnastics.
The Jews need to give back what they stole. I am not sure why that
is so confusing to people. There needs to be a world tribunal like
the Nuremburg trials to determine what was done and who was
responsible, and to put an end to this nonsense. But failing that,
the US legal system could solve the problem within a year if they
just prosecuted this obnoxious real estate mafia. Why are
Progressive Jews not lobbying for criminal penalties on Jews who
invest in property that was cleared of its original owners by force
in the Holy Land? There is enough room in all of Bush's new prisons
for all these shady real estate agents. This is a simple matter of
holding people legally accountable for the harm they cause others.
It is exactly the same issue with dispute over the Roxbury Mosque.
Some shady white Jewish real estate dealers were furious that the
black community benefited from this piece of land next to the subway
station that they wanted to develop, so now they are engaging in
extra-legal trickery and character assassination to try to get that
piece of real estate away from the people who own it.
Once the Palestinians get their land back and all the Zionist
organizations' assets are confiscated to repair all the damage they
have done, then we can talk about whether or not "the Jewish People"
have the right to "self-determination" in the form of an
ethnocentric nation state.
I learned when I was a kid that the way to get self-determination -
ie, the ability to do what you want when you want how you want - is
to behave yourself. The Jews are not behaving themselves, and there
is nothing okay about it. When a progressive Jew starts
whining, "You think I'm evil!!" he or she breaks the heart of the
human being who is trying to have peace with this person. It ends
all rational discussion. It ends all hope for peace.
Sometimes Palestinians find it easier to deal with right wing
Zionists than left wing because at least they are honest. A
Palestinian can say to a right wing Jew, "You stole my property."
The right wing Jew will say, "Yeah, and what are you going to do
about it? My religion says I can steal your property." Then the
Muslim can with dignity say, "Well my religion says that God curses
the man who puts another man out of his home, and that I have the
right to fight you." So that actually can be done in the context of
a polite dialogue. A peace plan is even potentially possible.
Because then the Jew can say, "Well, I don't want you to kill me and
I can see why you would think that I deserved it, because if you did
the same thing to me I would certainly kill you. So let's make a
deal. I'll let you live in the garage." This is still insulting
behavior, but it's in the process of being made less sadistic.
On the other hand, if a Palestinian says to a progressive Jew, "You
stole my property!" The progressive Jew will usually shut down
entirely. I have seen a fifty year old man start crying and
insisting he's not evil. This is the behavior of someone who is
guilty as sin. Like when you accuse your husband of adultery and he
starts guilt-tripping you about how you don't believe in him
(hypothetical but common scenario).
The other reaction is to get maliciously angry and start doing
character assassination via gossip so that none of the other
progressive Jews will greet that person who brought up the "touchy"
subject. But they will be told that this person is an "enemy of
peace" - so that it will be politically correct to shun them the
same way that we avoid eye contact with skinheads and Bible
thumpers. Progressive Jews are the most amazingly idealistic people
on the planet. They want to be able to continue to sit on someone
else's stolen property (or at least vacation on it) and not only
they think they have a "right" to travel around unharmed, ride the
buses, shop and eat pizza while the people they made homeless have
no water or food - but they want their victims to LIKE them. The
Jews are the only conquerors in the history of the planet that
expected the conquered people to LIKE them! If they don't like us,
we feel offended and outraged. And what Jews consider as "liking
behavior" is never mentioning the property they stole.
It's amazing. I've discussed some of this with Avigail Abarbanel, an
ex-Israeli psychiatrist in Australia. She views Zionism as a mental
illness that can be treated. But Zionism is just a symptom of a
deeper problem, the delusional belief that you have "rights" which
do not exist. Like a kid thinking he has the right to hit his
sister. It's a failure to apply the Golden Rule to one's personal
sense of responsibility in certain situations. The inner conflict
that arises from these "situational ethics" certainly does create a
clinically diagnosable mental inability to process certain types of
information that trigger the neurotic or sometimes even psychotic
defensive reaction.
Unfortunately, when it comes to Israel, Jews are defensive in the
sense that they cannot process the type of information that is
necessary to create peaceful behaviors. For example, if a Jew and
Palestinian live next door to each other in New Jersey, the Jew
being the "owner" of a condo built on the Palestinian person's
property, don't you think the Jew should offer to give it back, if
he expects the other's friendship? If the Palestinian, as is normal,
invites the Jew over for tea and politely doesn't bring up the
subject, does the Jew feel that this means it's OK what he did? That
he can forgive himself? That is what Jews want after all. We want to
be forgiven without apology for everything we have done AND
everything we are about to do. Is this a rational approach to peace?
Is it working?
----------------- Bulletin Message -----------------
From: ♥ Angel ♥ ™
Date: Apr 27, 2007 7:12 AM
Houdini
Fred
The Zionist philosophizes that the Palestinian is not a human
(Israel was a land without a people). The Anti-Zionist argues that
the Palestinian is a human being. So what is the moderate viewpoint?
The Palestinian is a quasi-human? That seems to be the American
Progressive Jewish position. Amazing isn't it?
Polite Discussion on Zionism: Is it Possible?
Karin Friedemann - ummyakoub @ yahoo.com
April 25, 2007
World View News Service
I found http://www.realisticdove.org/ very interesting because it is
the first time I have come across a progressive Jew so honest about
his racism. Usually when confronted, these confused souls just get
indignant and refuse to speak to you for a few months. I always
wondered how a person could think that Israel has a "right"
to "security" and shrug off this amazing assumption with the
accusation that anyone who has questions about your definitions is
accusing you of being an evil murderer. Why would any sane person
think that he has the right to live unharrassed on someone else's
stolen property? Even the cute kids waving Israeli flags are
participating in a criminally insane political ideology.
Progressive Jews want to make the bottom line "Jews are nice
people." But that is not the bottom line. As Hillel mentioned, the
bottom line is that you don't do to others what you don't want
others to do to you. What would we expect if our neighbor, with or
without warning, bulldozed our house?
First, we would call the police. If the man with the bulldozer
failed to stop bulldozing the house, the police officer would have
the duty to disable the vehicle and he might even shoot him. I'm
talking about American law. The bulldozer man would be stopped. He
would be considered a criminal. He would be put on trial. He would
go to prison. If he had killed people in the process of bulldozing
the house, he might even be executed. The owner of the house that
was bulldozed would be entitled to damages plus extra for pain and
suffering. The law requires that his property be restored to the
original state that it was in. That includes replanting the trees
and fixing the pavement around the house.
The emotional defensiveness of Jews is actually quite amusing, where
they want to argue that the bulldozer man was not evil, he was not a
murderer. The family that moved into the stolen property are just
innocent idealists. They may be misguided, or mistaken, but for some
reason Jews want to argue that they are not evil. What they are
really saying is that they don't want Jews to be held legally
accountable for their actions. They want to enjoy the privilege of
being "protected" from the laws that apply to other people.
A law does not cover the "evilness" of a criminal. It covers actions
and consequences.
If international law were followed, the Israeli "government' would
never have kicked out any Palestinians. The entire existence of
Israel is based on the condition made by the UN that Palestinians
would remain in their homes and receive equal citizenship in the new
nation state. That condition was not followed. Therefore, there is
no legal basis for any assumption that Israel has a right to exist,
according to the UN. In fact, Israel does not really exist. It is a
figment of imagination, the defensive mechanism of the neurotic
Jewish collective consciousness. I agree that we need to stop
arguing about isms but the next step is to follow the laws that
already exist to solve the problems. Don't wait for the world
community to force Israel to do it. Why don't we, as Jews, just do
it? Why are progressive Jews wasting their time feeling emotionally
threatened by a one state solution? The real problem is that we are
feeling emotionally threatened by any solution. Because a solution
means that a lot of Jews need to be prosecuted.
The refugees need to be given back their property with extra for
damages. Even if they fled their homes because Arab leaders told
them to get out of the fighting zone in 1948, they have the legal
right to return to their homes as soon as the fighting stops. Small
wonder why Israel continues to attack people day after day.
The refugees need to be given full civil rights. Full water rights,
full road rights, and the full right to criminally prosecute. Every
Jewish family in America that has any property in the Holy Land
needs to be prosecuted as part of an organized criminal network.
Especially if both the Palestinian and the Jewish persons are
American citizens. For example one friend of mine, after her family
was forced off their land by gunpoint, New York Jews bought the
land, bulldozed everything, and planted orange trees. She knows
where they live. She knows their names. Anyone who buys or sells
stolen property is a criminal. They need to be prosecuted. Any Jew
who owns stolen property in the Holy Land should have his property
seized including their US assets and Progressive Jews should insist
on it instead of doing these mental "I'm not evil" gymnastics.
The Jews need to give back what they stole. I am not sure why that
is so confusing to people. There needs to be a world tribunal like
the Nuremburg trials to determine what was done and who was
responsible, and to put an end to this nonsense. But failing that,
the US legal system could solve the problem within a year if they
just prosecuted this obnoxious real estate mafia. Why are
Progressive Jews not lobbying for criminal penalties on Jews who
invest in property that was cleared of its original owners by force
in the Holy Land? There is enough room in all of Bush's new prisons
for all these shady real estate agents. This is a simple matter of
holding people legally accountable for the harm they cause others.
It is exactly the same issue with dispute over the Roxbury Mosque.
Some shady white Jewish real estate dealers were furious that the
black community benefited from this piece of land next to the subway
station that they wanted to develop, so now they are engaging in
extra-legal trickery and character assassination to try to get that
piece of real estate away from the people who own it.
Once the Palestinians get their land back and all the Zionist
organizations' assets are confiscated to repair all the damage they
have done, then we can talk about whether or not "the Jewish People"
have the right to "self-determination" in the form of an
ethnocentric nation state.
I learned when I was a kid that the way to get self-determination -
ie, the ability to do what you want when you want how you want - is
to behave yourself. The Jews are not behaving themselves, and there
is nothing okay about it. When a progressive Jew starts
whining, "You think I'm evil!!" he or she breaks the heart of the
human being who is trying to have peace with this person. It ends
all rational discussion. It ends all hope for peace.
Sometimes Palestinians find it easier to deal with right wing
Zionists than left wing because at least they are honest. A
Palestinian can say to a right wing Jew, "You stole my property."
The right wing Jew will say, "Yeah, and what are you going to do
about it? My religion says I can steal your property." Then the
Muslim can with dignity say, "Well my religion says that God curses
the man who puts another man out of his home, and that I have the
right to fight you." So that actually can be done in the context of
a polite dialogue. A peace plan is even potentially possible.
Because then the Jew can say, "Well, I don't want you to kill me and
I can see why you would think that I deserved it, because if you did
the same thing to me I would certainly kill you. So let's make a
deal. I'll let you live in the garage." This is still insulting
behavior, but it's in the process of being made less sadistic.
On the other hand, if a Palestinian says to a progressive Jew, "You
stole my property!" The progressive Jew will usually shut down
entirely. I have seen a fifty year old man start crying and
insisting he's not evil. This is the behavior of someone who is
guilty as sin. Like when you accuse your husband of adultery and he
starts guilt-tripping you about how you don't believe in him
(hypothetical but common scenario).
The other reaction is to get maliciously angry and start doing
character assassination via gossip so that none of the other
progressive Jews will greet that person who brought up the "touchy"
subject. But they will be told that this person is an "enemy of
peace" - so that it will be politically correct to shun them the
same way that we avoid eye contact with skinheads and Bible
thumpers. Progressive Jews are the most amazingly idealistic people
on the planet. They want to be able to continue to sit on someone
else's stolen property (or at least vacation on it) and not only
they think they have a "right" to travel around unharmed, ride the
buses, shop and eat pizza while the people they made homeless have
no water or food - but they want their victims to LIKE them. The
Jews are the only conquerors in the history of the planet that
expected the conquered people to LIKE them! If they don't like us,
we feel offended and outraged. And what Jews consider as "liking
behavior" is never mentioning the property they stole.
It's amazing. I've discussed some of this with Avigail Abarbanel, an
ex-Israeli psychiatrist in Australia. She views Zionism as a mental
illness that can be treated. But Zionism is just a symptom of a
deeper problem, the delusional belief that you have "rights" which
do not exist. Like a kid thinking he has the right to hit his
sister. It's a failure to apply the Golden Rule to one's personal
sense of responsibility in certain situations. The inner conflict
that arises from these "situational ethics" certainly does create a
clinically diagnosable mental inability to process certain types of
information that trigger the neurotic or sometimes even psychotic
defensive reaction.
Unfortunately, when it comes to Israel, Jews are defensive in the
sense that they cannot process the type of information that is
necessary to create peaceful behaviors. For example, if a Jew and
Palestinian live next door to each other in New Jersey, the Jew
being the "owner" of a condo built on the Palestinian person's
property, don't you think the Jew should offer to give it back, if
he expects the other's friendship? If the Palestinian, as is normal,
invites the Jew over for tea and politely doesn't bring up the
subject, does the Jew feel that this means it's OK what he did? That
he can forgive himself? That is what Jews want after all. We want to
be forgiven without apology for everything we have done AND
everything we are about to do. Is this a rational approach to peace?
Is it working?
posted by Gandolfo at 4/27/2007
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